95: More Historical Malpractice - Part 2 with Whitney Horning
| 95: More Historical Malpractice - Part 2 with Whitney Horning | |
|---|---|
| Series | 132 Problems |
| Episode | 95 |
| Date | 2023-12-03 |
| Tags | Brian Hales, Church History, Don Bradley, Fake History, Historical Malpractice, John Taylor, July 12 1843, Oliver Olney, Revised documents, The Peacemaker, Whitney Horning, William Clayton Journals, altered documents, plural wifery |
- Overview
Don't miss this one! The second half of my conversation with Whitney Horning. We respond in depth to several recent claims by Don Bradley and others, and demonstrate how to be a polygamy researcher. Stay tuned to the end for more bonus content revealing ongoing unbelievable discoveries.
Correction! In the bonus content I refer to the deed to Hyrum as "identical" to the deed to Emma and her children. I should have been more precise. The back side of the deeds are "identical" and there is much overlap on the front side, but the lots on the front side are not exactly the same. This does not in any way affect the conclusion that this deed to Hyrum is devastating to the William Clayton journal and the polygamy narrative, and I will clarify in future episodes, but I wanted to correct the record in the meantime.
Whitney Horning - Presentation Slides
(Another link to try if the first doesn't work -- please let me know if you can't access)
Whitney and Michelle on Jacob Isbell's channel
Don Bradley on Ward Radio
Fair Mormon article on Hoffmann forgery D. Michael Quinn included in 1994
Franklin D. Richards Scriptural Items Notebook pg 38
Hyrum Smith July 12, 1843 Deed
* 2:16:12 -- The source for the story of Emma and Joseph weeping together with Clayton serving as their mediator is from William Clayton's extremely problematic July 13, 1843 journal entry.
Transcript
00:00 Michelle: Welcome to 132 problems revisiting Mormon polygamy where we explore the scriptural theological and historical case for plural marriage. This is part two of my discussion with Whitney Horning and part one. As you recall, we talked about that face to face fireside, discussed that in depth and then went on to reveal some amazing sources that neither of us had known about before. There will be more sources revealed in this episode as we continue our discussion about historical malpractice and the fun and frustration of being a polygamy researcher. So thank you so much for being here as we take this deep dive into the extremely murky waters of the historical narrative of Mormon polygamy. So the next traitor. Can you tell us about Oliver Olney? Because this is a lesser known one and I have some clips to play on this one. Do you 01:12 Whitney: want to play those clips first? So people know why we're bringing him up? 01:16 Michelle: Well, now let's talk about him first. Just give us an overview of who he was. So Oliver 01:22 Whitney: Olney, let's get like you said, he isn't well known. And in fact, it was very surprising to me when his name came up in the clips you're going to show. But Oliver Olney was excommunicated from the church in 1842. And he has a journal where he recorded his reflections about events that happened in 1842. But he either, his handwriting is so poor that it's really hard to decipher or he wrote in some kind of shorthand, but it's really difficult to understand it. But he started alleging that some of the members of the 12 were secretly engaging in illicit behavior with women. Then later, he referenced that there were rumors of plural wifery going on. And then at one point, he charged Joseph with being passionately fond of women after his excommunication, he published an anti Mormon pamphlet titled The Absurdities of Mormonism portrayed. And in that pamphlet, he accused Joseph of printing the document called The Peacemaker. So that's the proof that only so was hearing rumors and there were rumors in Nauvoo about Joseph and the heads of the church doing polygamy. There were also rumors that members of the 12 were doing polygamy and we do know from actual accurate documents that there were members of the 12 practicing. So that rumor was true. 02:55 Michelle: But also, can I go ahead quickly add that also explains the rumors about Joseph because the 12 were saying Joseph said Joseph is doing this, Joseph taught us this, they were using Joseph's name just like John Bennett had done. So there were a lot of people falsely implicated and that's why all of the letters were coming in to Hyrum or Joseph to verify. So it makes sense that these rumors were going around. And I think it's interesting that Olney first accuses the 12 in his journal and then only later accuses Joseph. 03:28 Whitney: The proof he uses that Joseph was teaching and doing polygamy was a pamphlet titled The Peacemaker. And Olney later, does another expose on polygamy in 1845 after Joseph has died titled Spiritual wifery at Nauvoo exposed. 03:55 Michelle: OK. So now we can talk about the Peacemaker, right? And this one threw me for a loop when I first found it until someone showed me this notice that Joseph intentionally printed in the newspaper because Joseph was out of town when I think it was John Taylor was running the press at this time if I'm not mistaken and and published the Peace Maker under Joseph's name, listed Joseph as the publisher. And Joseph flat out denied it and called it, What do he call it a piece, Not a piece of trash but something rigmarole that such an unmeaning rigmarole of nonsense, nonsense, folly and trash. So we did call it trash. So I'm gonna try and get back here. 04:46 Whitney: just while you're doing that just to clarify. So this pamphlet, The Peacemaker, John Taylor was the editor of the Times and Seasons. But a man named Adne Jacob is the one who actually wrote this. But when he wrote it, he put on there that it said, you know, printed in Nauvoo Illinois J Smith editor. So that's where 05:08 Michelle: I think a publisher or publisher says it's hard to think its publisher. 05:13 Whitney: So that's where Joseph's name gets brought into this as if he allowed it, he approved it, whatever. And that's why then Joseph immediately is like I had nothing to do with this, and publishes. 05:25 Michelle: And I guess we should for anyone who doesn't know what that is. It is horrible. Like Joseph described it accurately that it is nonsense, folly and trash. It's so painful to read. I was actually so disappointed in Joseph when I read it because I was like, I didn't, I've said this before. I didn't think he was this. Just not smart, like it's just so bad, it's so bad, but it is a treatise on polygamy saying we need polygamy and it's not religious at all. He wasn't even a member of the church at the time. 05:58 Whitney: if I ever joined the church. I don't know if I need it. So I wanted to really quickly read this. So in 1851 Adne Jacob wrote a letter to Brigham Young and he stated that he was the author of the Peacemaker. And this is the letter that "I wrote a pamphlet some years since entitled, The Peacemaker. You have certainly a wrong idea of that matter. I was not a member of this church and that pamphlet was not written for this people but for the citizens of the United States who professed to believe in the Bible." So it must have been his attempt at trying to explain biblical polygamy. I don't know, but I find it interesting that he wrote a letter to Brigham Young saying, hey, you know, so to me that says in 1851 he must have been hearing rumors that the church was really saying Joseph did polygamy and here's proof because of this Peacemaker and he's like, no, you guys have the wrong idea. It was all me.
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